Summary
In this episode, Laurie Groh interviews Joe Sanok, a mental health therapist and host of the Practice of the Practice podcast. They discuss the importance of slowing down and the benefits of a shorter work week. Joe shares insights on changing the mindset of overworking and the history of the 40-hour work week.
He also introduces the concept of the plus one minus one exercise, which encourages individuals to add something positive to their weekends while removing something that doesn't serve them. The conversation emphasizes the need to prioritize well-being and find a balance between work and personal life.
Takeaways
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Special Guest
01:20 The Influence of Virtual Mentors
02:1 1Midwest Culture and Sports Rivalries
03:14 The Importance of Slowing Down
05:32 Changing the Mindset of Overworking
08:47 The History of the 40-Hour Work Week
13:26 The Benefits of a 32-Hour Work Week
17:43 Slowing Down for the Average Person
20:48 The Plus One Minus One Exercise
25:20 Taking Inaction and Letting Go of Guilt
26:54 Conclusion
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Transcript
Laurie Groh (00:01.44)
Welcome, Wisconsinites. I am Lori Grow, and welcome to the Wisconsin Wellness Podcast. Today we have a very special guest. Joe Sanick is here with us today. And Joe has been a mental health therapist, but he is known most well for his podcast Practice of the Practice. He's also
Thursday's a new Friday, how to work fewer hours, which is an amazing book. I love this book. I go to go back to it frequently. I want to talk with you today. Joe, thank you so much for being here.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (00:46.438)
Oh, Laurie, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Laurie Groh (00:50.048)
Yeah, Joe, I don't know if you realize how much you mean to all of the therapists that you work with, but I can go back and think about maybe this was two and a half years ago, getting ready, listening to your podcast. And this moment is really special for me because I can't imagine, I could not imagine having you on my podcast. So it's one of those moments where I just want to breathe and take it in for a second.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (01:20.366)
Oh, you know, I'm so honored to be here. You know, I have people like that, like Pat Flynn or John Lee Dumas that early in my career, I was listening to their podcasts and they seemed so out of touch with kind of where I was at and they were so inspirational. And, you know, I totally geeked out when they were on my podcast and when I was on theirs. So I get that. We all those people that have been virtual mentors in this interesting podcast world.
Laurie Groh (01:44.76)
Right. And it's really cool that you're so open to doing things like this. And I'm guessing they are very similar in that regard of just being open and just saying, yeah, I'm going to help you out and I'll help you out. Which is one of my values. It's definitely one of my values for my therapy practice and just overall life. So
Um, what stood out to me, Joe, and you know, you're on a Wisconsin podcast and you're not from Wisconsin, you're from Michigan. However, however, I believe your whole family, they're Packer fans. Is that true?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (02:20.13)
True, just across the lake.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (02:29.078)
You know, my, uh, my ex wife's family is, uh, and they have co-opted my children's brains. Um, and so, uh, I have big debates with my daughters now. Um, yeah, they've become Michigan state fans. They've become Packer fans, everything I stand against. And I'm not even a big football person. So it's actually more funny to just debate with people that are, because, uh, you know, I'll often say to people in the upper peninsula of Michigan and just say like,
Laurie Groh (02:33.58)
Oh, okay.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (02:56.178)
you pay taxes in Michigan, you know, the Lions actually are doing well finally. You know, who knows that, you know, when this is released what happens to them. But it's one of those things that is to me, it's just fun to debate. And, you know, it's like a sibling rivalry where you guys are literally across the lake. Like, why wouldn't we support you unless you're playing against the Lions?
Laurie Groh (03:01.158)
Yeah.
Laurie Groh (03:14.344)
Right. I do the same thing, Joe, with my oldest, he's 12. And I'm not a huge football fan myself. I'm more of a Brewers fan. But I will ask people to tell me specific stats or sports news, and just kind of sprinkle it in every year, you know, here and there to see how he reacts, because he thinks I know absolutely nothing about sports.
like, I think yesterday there was this big announcement for the Bucks that they had let go the head coach. And so I asked my work partner, Hey, give me something I can say to my son. So I look like I know what I'm doing. And his face is so funny. He's like, How do you know that? But then he instantly knew I was messing with them.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (04:04.163)
It's great being a parent and doing that to your kids.
Laurie Groh (04:06.74)
Yeah, I know. I know. It's so fun. So, you know, with being from Michigan, I think there are a lot of similarities in the Midwest, where I think the general idea is with Midwesterners that we're gonna work extremely hard, not be full of ourselves, right? Like keep kind of down, keep low.
let's be very casual and at the same time, work ourselves to the bone. I guess that's what I see. See it with my clients, I see it with my friends. The work that people are doing is so draining. And I guess I was curious a bit about, your book, the Thursday's the New Friday, it emphasizes the importance of slowing down and-
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (04:39.778)
Hmm.
Laurie Groh (05:01.956)
You know, I love that idea and how that can help you be, how it can help you with increasing productivity. But I'm curious, how would you be able to convince a Wisconsinite, not that your job is to convince, but how would you help change the mindset of a Wisconsinite that feels like they have to work more than 40 hours a week, more than 50 hours a week?
What would you say to them?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (05:32.65)
Yeah, I mean, I think first I would start with, I think there's a lot of different types of people that are probably listening. There are people that are really struggling financially. They're making an hourly wage. They're barely making ends meet. And if they stopped working as many hours as they're working, they wouldn't have enough money to survive. And so I think just acknowledging that there are different levels of privilege, I think, in regards to answering that question. And that, you know,
Laurie Groh (05:52.025)
Right, right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (05:59.47)
If we're thinking about the average entrepreneur, which is who I focus on working with, uh, the average business owner, it could be just, I'm a solo counselor, it could be, you know, I work with companies now, uh, I've partnered with this guy, Simon Sinek, who, um, has done a lot of business coaching. And, um, and so now I'm coaching businesses on a lot of this stuff. So if we're, if we're talking about business owners, you know, C-suite executives, mid-level managers, talking to them about what's the value in slowing down for their company, for themselves, for their staff.
Laurie Groh (06:02.638)
Yes.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (06:28.79)
That's where I think my answer would most land. So I just wanted to parse that out a little bit. So the question, if I was sitting down with one of these individuals and they're like, make the case, I would ask them, when do you have your best ideas? Is it when you're stressed out and maxed out and you've worked a 50 hour week or is it when you've slowed down? Maybe you've gone downhill skiing for a bit. Maybe you're in the shower and just thinking you're maybe on a...
Laurie Groh (06:30.795)
Uh.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (06:57.394)
hike or snowshoeing and you don't have your AirPods in, you're just letting your mind wander. Like where do you have your best ideas? And maybe some people would say, yeah, it's when I'm stressed out. But I would guess that, you know, if it's what the neuroscience and the research shows is that our best ideas come when our brains are resting, when they slow down. For me, that first 10 seconds of meditation, my brain is like, oh, here's all the to-do list items that you forgot to think about. And my monkey brain is everywhere.
Um and so I write it down and then I can get into my meditation practice easier. Um and so if we just start with we all know that we have great ideas when we slow down. Do we want our businesses to have more innovative ideas? Do we want our staff to be more innovative? Do we want them to find creative solutions to things? Do we want our customer service to be paced out and less stressed? Or do we want people to feel like they're being squeezed into whatever business we have? You know, so I think...
We know that when we aren't freaking out that we do better work, we have more creative work. But then it's, well, what does the research say? And we actually look at, you know, there's been, there was a huge study out of the UK. They looked at the 32-hour week compared to the 40-hour week, and they found that the outcomes were almost identical, if not better for the 32-hour week in regards to productivity. And so I think if we just look at that most companies that switched to the four-day work week, uh,
Laurie Groh (08:04.43)
Right.
Laurie Groh (08:17.412)
Wow.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (08:22.242)
they end up actually increasing profits. They end up having lower healthcare costs. They end up having people stay longer. And you think about when someone leaves a job, just how long it takes to find someone, replace someone, get them up to that level that they were, that the other person was at before them. So there's all sorts of evidence that we can dig into, but I would just start with that simple question of when do you have your best ideas?
Laurie Groh (08:47.704)
Right, right. That's such a great point. You convinced me.
in that for sure to slow down a bit. Because you're right, that's when I have my best ideas in those exact places. Maybe not skiing because I'm a bit scared of falling and rupturing something again. But it is those times anytime that my kids are bored. It's something I say to them like, oh, this is a good thing, something.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (09:05.398)
Yeah
Laurie Groh (09:18.104)
creative is going to come from this. You just gotta you just gotta wait for a minute. And that's when they start making these things with Legos or boxes. One of my son makes very interesting things with our Costco boxes. When you know when he's feeling that boredom. And I guess I'm curious, do you think some of it's
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (09:20.129)
Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (09:34.466)
Hehehehe
Laurie Groh (09:42.596)
I mean, it's how society has worked for years and years and years. But do you think there's a fear in not moving towards that 32 hour work week? Because to me, it sounds like it completely makes sense.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (09:59.722)
Yeah, I think part of it for me when I entered into writing Thursday as a new Friday was to really actually look at that history of time of how we got here. Because because oftentimes we feel like things are very secure and formed and this is just how the world is. But I wanted to see is that true. And so I actually went back to look at where did we even get the seven day week. And so thousands of years ago, the Babylonians, they looked up in the sky and they saw the sun and the moon.
look down, they saw the earth and then they could see bright stars that were planets that were Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, and Mars. So seven major things and in nature, there's nothing that points to a seven-day week. You know, a year makes sense. A day makes sense. The months are loosely connected to the to the lunar cycle but there's no there's no rhyme or reason to seven days other than the Babylonians were terrible at astronomy. At the time, they were great but they just said, let's do seven days. You know,
Laurie Groh (10:55.788)
Right, right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (10:57.91)
The Romans had a 10 day week, the Egyptians had an eight day week. Even in the 1800s, the Russians had a five day week. So if we just start with, we're not gonna change the seven day week, but that alone is arbitrary. We could just as easily have had a five day week, you know? And so then we look at, well, what was the work schedule for people, you know, a hundred years ago? In the late 1800s, the average person worked 12 to 14 hours a day, six to seven days a week.
Laurie Groh (11:07.138)
Right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (11:23.502)
I mean, that's just insane. They were working a farmer's schedule, even if they weren't a farmer. And so that was the 1800s. And then we see some major protests at Haymarket Square in Chicago, where people had moved from Europe to help rebuild after the fire. And their life was worse in Chicago than it had been in Europe. And so they start protesting for a 40-hour work week. And 40 years after that, Henry Ford in Detroit started the 40-hour work week. And it was to sell cars to his own employees. He thought,
Laurie Groh (11:23.852)
Oof. Yeah!
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (11:52.554)
If I give them a weekend, then they're gonna buy a car and wanna like scoot out of town and then I'm gonna help build roads and I'm gonna just sell more cars to my own people. And so in 1926, Henry Ford starts the 40 hour work week. It takes off. So less than a hundred years ago, the 40 hour work week started. So this thing that we feel is like just normal, you know, the baby boomers were really the first adult generation to fully experience this. The World War II generation.
Laurie Groh (11:57.548)
Oh wow.
Laurie Groh (12:01.24)
Wow.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (12:18.73)
What was sort of experiencing it, you know, and there, all the companies weren't on board with it. A lot of them were working really long hours, you know, unions hadn't necessarily helped with that 40 hour week either. So then you look at Gen Xers and millennials, you know, we're only the second or third generation of 40 hour work week. And so this thing that we hold so dear, we then look at, you know, in the 90s with TGIF on ABC and the rise of casual Fridays.
And then the pandemic, I mean, that just obliterated anything that we thought was normal in a lot of ways. But if we understand that history, we can then say, well, is that what we want? Do we actually want that? Or could we do something different? My belief is that industrialist approach of, you know, you plug it in, it's a machine, it kicks out a Model T that helped society move forward. It helped to have that 40 hour week. But it also isn't going to sustain
Laurie Groh (12:50.977)
Right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (13:13.846)
for us in the future. We believe things that the industrialists don't believe. Like people aren't machines, people are diverse, they have different thoughts. And so if we've thrown out almost everything the industrialists taught us, why would we hold onto the 40 hour week?
Laurie Groh (13:19.707)
Right.
Laurie Groh (13:26.328)
Right, right. It just doesn't really fit. I mean, that is, it is an interesting thought, even just that everybody in every position needs to be there for 40 hours. It doesn't really make much logical sense, either of what do you do then you're done with work? You know, maybe you're going on Facebook or social media, but if you get all of your stuff done, then why are you needing to still be there?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (13:54.762)
Yeah. Well, and it raises the question of like, what is the function of this role? There are functions where you like customer service, where, you know, maybe you do need someone literally sitting there for 40 hours answering phones and you really can't maybe change the efficiency of it, but for most roles to say your butt in that chair for 40 hours a week is what we're paying for. Like, no, like what is the actual KPI, the key performance indicator of this? And can we reach that?
Laurie Groh (13:55.032)
And it does seem like, yeah, oh, go ahead.
Laurie Groh (14:02.123)
Mm-hmm.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (14:23.682)
in less than 40 hours a week.
Laurie Groh (14:26.228)
Yeah, yeah. I'm this is sort of a tangent. But what are your thoughts of that same idea with schools?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (14:36.506)
I love it. I mean, when I look at when you look at the research, especially around tween and teen brains, like my daughter has to wake up at 6am so that she can be on the bus at 645 for school to start at 740. It's just not how the tween and teen brain works. And then you also look at, you know, say, work and school was aligned around a four day work week. To be able to then
Laurie Groh (14:37.986)
Yeah.
Laurie Groh (14:52.864)
Yeah, same.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (15:03.314)
have time to do all that catch up on say a Friday of whether it's you know grocery shopping or other things. It's going to help with emotional intelligence. It's going to help with creativity. It's going to help with students being able to not feel that they're rushed from 6am until the moment they go to sleep. I mean, there's so many beneficial outcomes. And when we're seeing there are some school districts that have actually started it in the last couple of years, and they see that student success actually goes up. Kalamazoo Valley Community College down in southwest Michigan.
Laurie Groh (15:26.851)
Oh.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (15:32.666)
started the four day work week in the summer. And I talk about that in the book, but it was all because this guy, Ted Forrester, he was an HVAC instructor. He looked at how expensive it was to run AC and figured out that they'd save about a million dollars a year just by shutting down the entire school on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and having no AC kick in for an extra day. And the board said, let's test it. And then the staff loved it so much that like their health outcomes were better, which they're a self-funded health system. So.
That means that the community college basically just pays for the health care out of a fund rather than have a big insurance company do it. So if they save money on healthcare, that means that the college has more money. So there was all these crazy things where people didn't, they didn't want to give up a four day work week in the summer and student success. There was hardly anyone there on Fridays anyway. And so they, they saw that they actually optimized the time that they were using the community college more efficiently.
Laurie Groh (16:15.73)
All right.
Laurie Groh (16:28.036)
Right. What I what's so interesting is the health benefit piece as well. Because, you know, I work with a lot of clients that tend to, like I said earlier, tend to work more than 40 hours a week, and just the stress on their body to be on, you know, on point for that.
long of time, it doesn't it doesn't work well for the body, the body starts to get worn down. A lot of times people are having difficulty sleeping. And then it seems to me like it would be the snowball effect of one thing leads to another. So I'm curious kind of to switch gears a bit on to that to the habit aspect, because
You know, like you'd mentioned earlier, not everybody can, can't do this and your audience is more towards entrepreneurs. However, I'm curious as to some ideas on how to slow down a bit for maybe that average person. Are there certain things, certain ideas you might have for somebody to start slowing down a bit more?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (17:43.174)
Yeah, you know, there's one activity that I often do with my one-on-one consulting clients that has really resonated with them. And I think that what I like about it is that you don't have to have the four-day work week to do this activity. It's called the plus one minus one exercise. And so oftentimes when we enter into a weekend, it's in reaction to the previous week. So you know, I had a busy week, I worked 40, 50 hours, I'm just going to crash on the couch, play video games, watch Netflix, drink too much wine, whatever.
It's in reaction to that previous week and you're just exhausted. Instead of saying, let's have our weekend be in preparation for the coming week so that we can be most rested, slow down as best as we can, be our best self on Monday morning. So the plus one minus one exercise, the way it works is it's shifting away from that industrialist mindset where it's sort of a one size fits all, that you're a machine, you plug it in, everyone's the same, it works for everybody. Instead shifting into a post-industrialist mindset where we're thinking about
Laurie Groh (18:15.984)
Right.
Laurie Groh (18:26.969)
Mmm.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (18:42.574)
life and activities more as a menu where we're building things that work for us or don't work for us that we're really experimenting on ourselves to see what works. And so in this exercise, you're going to look at your coming weekend, and say what's something I can add to this weekend that I can test and just see, does it make me feel a little bit more connected to the people in my life? Does it make me feel more rested? Does it make me feel like I got a little more out of the weekend? So you know, for me, your last weekend, we went
downhill skiing and my daughter started taking snowboard lessons and that was something I knew I wanted to do. But you know, say I was, I was testing this out, Claire and I had an amazing time. You know, we went skiing for three hours without the girls because they were in snowboard lessons and we got out of the house and enjoyed the winter weather. And so that would be on my plus one list of things that I could add in that make my weekend just more robust, but then we also want to do a minus one.
Laurie Groh (19:16.076)
Oh my gosh.
Laurie Groh (19:35.836)
All right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (19:38.622)
There might be things that we need to remove from our schedule. Like, you know, maybe we don't want to spend Sunday fighting with everybody trying to get our groceries done. Maybe we give ourselves permission to say, I'm going to get groceries delivered this week and just see if taking that off my plate makes me feel a little bit better, or maybe you're scheduled to get coffee with a friend of yours, but they're a toxic friend. And every time you leave, you feel like trash. Like we're all too old to have toxic friends. Like you're allowed to cancel that and say.
Laurie Groh (20:05.013)
Right? Right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (20:07.338)
You know what? Unfortunately, I have something else that I need to do and we're not going to be able to meet. See how that feels. And so as you're adding things in, it could be as small as saying, man, on a Saturday morning, I would love to just drink some green tea and read some fiction book that I get lost in for an hour and have my kids just not interrupt me. Okay. There's some planning there. You might have to talk to your partner or your kids and say, unless you're bleeding, please don't open this door. I'm going to be reading and I just need this for an hour.
Laurie Groh (20:26.201)
Yeah.
Laurie Groh (20:31.713)
Right, right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (20:34.954)
And I want to get lost in this fiction book. And so finding those little things to have our menu that we can say, okay, I feel a little off. I need to add something or remove something from my weekend to get back to what really lights me up.
Laurie Groh (20:48.172)
Yeah, I love that of exploring and testing things out and talking about the book, where you'd maybe be sitting and reading a book and saying, Can you give me some quiet time? I did see something, I think it was on Instagram, where, where a woman said, or a mom said, Hey, when I'm done with this book, we're gonna clean the whole house. And then she got her time. She got a lot of time. Yes. I'm like, I got to use that. I got to use that technique.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (21:12.818)
That's amazing.
Laurie Groh (21:18.972)
But yes, I love that of thinking about what are some things that really aren't serving you? What are some things that you could take off your plate? And thinking about it, not in this big, huge way of, I'm going to take this out from here on out, but just thinking about, let's test it, see how I feel. I can always change. Because I do think that gets in the way for some people.
for a lot of people of thinking that they have to commit to a change or commit to a path. So I think that would be really useful.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (21:55.858)
I think there's a lot of guilt that's often wrapped up in that when people, you know, set a new year's resolution and then they fail by early February, they look at themselves as a failure rather than, okay, that goal wasn't a fit for me. Maybe I don't want to go to the gym every single day. I want to be healthier, but going and running on a treadmill sounds boring. Maybe I need to take up curling or, you know, go do an improv class or whatever to just f***.
allow those things to come out and have, you know, very little shame around it and just say, yeah, I learned some information about myself. Planet fitness isn't for me. Okay, good. Glad you figured that out. Now let's move on to trying other things.
Laurie Groh (22:34.788)
Right, right. And I think one of my goals with the Wisconsin Wellness podcast is to kind of change what wellness means for people because it does seem like there is pressure in being well and feeling good and health. And it can seem as though you have to do all of the things. But really, it's about thinking about what you just said, like some things aren't going to fit for you.
I'm not gonna give up cheese curds for instance or my coffee. So I gotta figure out does that mean maybe I have an extra apple? You know what does it actually mean for me that's doable and that I don't feel down or criticize myself for
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (23:04.954)
Oh me either.
Laurie Groh (23:21.08)
you know, living in this world that has so many different things that can make me want to eat, right? It makes me want to eat this or do this. Our world is filled with those dopamine focused things. And I have to be realistic. And I want listeners to be realistic too, that you can, you can be well and take care of yourself without needing it to be this quote unquote perfect lifestyle.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (23:35.403)
Mm-hmm.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (23:49.802)
think that's a really great point. Because if we think about what's the motivation behind our wellness, so often it's well, I don't want to be at the end of my life and regret how I lived or I'm trying to optimize or biohack my life or it's coming from a place of lacking oftentimes. Compared to I just don't feel great. And I'd like to feel a little bit better. I'd, you know, prefer to feel grounded in my life. And how do I do that? And so
even just stepping back and being like it took billions and billions of years to get to the point of where you and I can talk across the lake in real time. You know, like all of this is bonkers. Like we get to live in this era and to just be present and be able to say holy cow. Like look at this world that's been created and look at the people in our lives and get to a place of hopefully saying and I'm definitely not there all the time but of hopefully just
Laurie Groh (24:28.428)
Right. Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (24:48.314)
Wow, like I get to do this. I get to be Joe for this life.
Laurie Groh (24:54.404)
Right, right. I love that. And that's a good transition into my last question for you. So for all the listeners here, I'm curious if you could share one last takeaway from our time together, one thing that you could tell them, hey, here's an action item. I want you to do this moving forward. What would that be?
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (25:20.759)
I would actually encourage them to do an inaction item. I would encourage them to look at what's making you feel guilty right now. Like when you're like oh I should do another load of laundry. I should do I mean I'm a single dad with you know sole physical custody of two amazing daughters. There is always something that I can be doing and I have to consciously say to myself you know what? It's time to have some inaction and to me
Laurie Groh (25:24.66)
Mmmm
Laurie Groh (25:39.427)
Right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (25:47.766)
we all have things that we could be doing better. We could be looking at our retirement portfolio. We could be doing all these things that would better our lives, quote unquote. But it's sort of like a neuroses that we're not good enough and we have to do more. We read a news article that says, yeah, if you're this age, this should be your net worth. And we read another thing that says, if you wanna raise emotionally intelligent kids, this Harvard researcher says, do these things. And it becomes so neurotic at times that I would just encourage people to say,
Laurie Groh (26:15.151)
Right.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (26:18.122)
You know what? Like, it's okay if you let one load of laundry go unfolded for an extra day. It's okay if you don't clean the kitchen and you decide to play a board game with your kids after dinner instead, um, find those inactions to, to allow them to, to creep into your life.
Laurie Groh (26:34.368)
Right? I love that. I think in the world of technology and information, that can be what paralyzes us. So I love that idea of picking something not to do. So thank you so much, Joe, for talking with me today. This has been amazing.
Joe Sanok | Practice of the Practice (26:54.263)
Laurie, this has been awesome. Thank you so much.
Laurie Groh (26:56.896)
Yeah, we'll talk soon. Bye.
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